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	<title>Comments on: At last a post that agrees with me!</title>
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	<link>http://7million7years.com/2009/03/07/at-last-a-post-that-agrees-with-me/</link>
	<description>How to make 7 million in 7 years ...</description>
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		<title>By: A Review of Dave Ramsey’s Baby Steps To Financial Freedom &#124; What can I Write Off My Taxes &#124; IRS</title>
		<link>http://7million7years.com/2009/03/07/at-last-a-post-that-agrees-with-me/comment-page-1/#comment-16002</link>
		<dc:creator>A Review of Dave Ramsey’s Baby Steps To Financial Freedom &#124; What can I Write Off My Taxes &#124; IRS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Mar 2011 19:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] You should NOT pay off your mortgage early at How to Make 7 Million in 7 Years™ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] You should NOT pay off your mortgage early at How to Make 7 Million in 7 Years™ [...]</p>
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		<title>By: * Dave Ramsey&#8217;s Baby Steps Explained</title>
		<link>http://7million7years.com/2009/03/07/at-last-a-post-that-agrees-with-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2441</link>
		<dc:creator>* Dave Ramsey&#8217;s Baby Steps Explained</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 02:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] articles that discuss Baby Step 6 Baby Step 6 at Dave RamseyPay Off Mortgage Early? at Frugal DadYou should NOT pay off your mortgage early at How to Make 7 Million in 7 Years™How To Pay Off Your Mortgage Early at The Greenest DollarBaby [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] articles that discuss Baby Step 6 Baby Step 6 at Dave RamseyPay Off Mortgage Early? at Frugal DadYou should NOT pay off your mortgage early at How to Make 7 Million in 7 Years™How To Pay Off Your Mortgage Early at The Greenest DollarBaby [...]</p>
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		<title>By: My very steep mountain I plan to climb. (My Mission in life) &#171; The Business Blog @ Capital Active</title>
		<link>http://7million7years.com/2009/03/07/at-last-a-post-that-agrees-with-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2450</link>
		<dc:creator>My very steep mountain I plan to climb. (My Mission in life) &#171; The Business Blog @ Capital Active</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 08:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] their 401k and invest in mutual funds.  (For all people even these I strongly suggest that they separate their home equity from their home, it make much more [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] their 401k and invest in mutual funds.  (For all people even these I strongly suggest that they separate their home equity from their home, it make much more [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://7million7years.com/2009/03/07/at-last-a-post-that-agrees-with-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2449</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 19:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://7million7years.com/?p=1711#comment-2449</guid>
		<description>@Adrian -

&quot;There have been no 20 year periods where the market has returned less than 4%&quot;

That doesn&#039;t sound right to me.  Look at the 20 year periods starting between 1/1929-12/1929 and you&#039;ll find they are all under 4% and one as low as 2.05%.  You might be looking at data that doesn&#039;t go that far back...what source are you using?


No matter what the returns are for a 20 year period, when you are analyzing a series of cash flows, you cannot assume that the return for each cash flow within the 20 year period will receive the long term (20-year) average return.  Only the very first cash flow (that is held for 20 years) will.

To illustrate my point, look at the last 19 years, where the compounded return (with dividend reinvestment) was 7.25%, i.e., the first monthly ($100) investment received this return.  Each subsequent monthly ($100) investment, however, received a different compounded return--some greater than and many less than 7.25% (quite a few were negative).  Overall, a series of $100 monthly payments over the last 19 years would have grown to $35,200 or provide an average compounded return of 4.31%.  As you see, 7.25% 19-year lump sum return is much different than the actual return you received from the series of period cash flows over the same period.


Don&#039;t get me wrong, I liked your example because it shows (in a very understandable way) that if you have extra money to invest and can reliably get a higher rate of return than your mortgage interest, you would be better off investing than paying down your mortgage.  What I thought deserved a little more discussion, however, was the reliability of market returns for a series of cash flows, i.e., that a series of cash flows over a long period often has a rate of return that is quite a bit more speculative than the lump sum return over the same period the example uses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Adrian -</p>
<p>&#8220;There have been no 20 year periods where the market has returned less than 4%&#8221;</p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t sound right to me.  Look at the 20 year periods starting between 1/1929-12/1929 and you&#8217;ll find they are all under 4% and one as low as 2.05%.  You might be looking at data that doesn&#8217;t go that far back&#8230;what source are you using?</p>
<p>No matter what the returns are for a 20 year period, when you are analyzing a series of cash flows, you cannot assume that the return for each cash flow within the 20 year period will receive the long term (20-year) average return.  Only the very first cash flow (that is held for 20 years) will.</p>
<p>To illustrate my point, look at the last 19 years, where the compounded return (with dividend reinvestment) was 7.25%, i.e., the first monthly ($100) investment received this return.  Each subsequent monthly ($100) investment, however, received a different compounded return&#8211;some greater than and many less than 7.25% (quite a few were negative).  Overall, a series of $100 monthly payments over the last 19 years would have grown to $35,200 or provide an average compounded return of 4.31%.  As you see, 7.25% 19-year lump sum return is much different than the actual return you received from the series of period cash flows over the same period.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I liked your example because it shows (in a very understandable way) that if you have extra money to invest and can reliably get a higher rate of return than your mortgage interest, you would be better off investing than paying down your mortgage.  What I thought deserved a little more discussion, however, was the reliability of market returns for a series of cash flows, i.e., that a series of cash flows over a long period often has a rate of return that is quite a bit more speculative than the lump sum return over the same period the example uses.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian</title>
		<link>http://7million7years.com/2009/03/07/at-last-a-post-that-agrees-with-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2448</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 06:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://7million7years.com/?p=1711#comment-2448</guid>
		<description>@ Jeff - There have been no 20 year periods where the market has returned less than 4% ... which is pretty close to the 5% over 19 year mortgage period that you mention ... but, yes, if there is a prolonged period of high interest rates that happen to coincide with an equally prolonged period of low stock market returns, the simple example that I have provided may not work out.

No reason to pay down your mortgage for a hugely non-trivial number of people, huh? :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Jeff &#8211; There have been no 20 year periods where the market has returned less than 4% &#8230; which is pretty close to the 5% over 19 year mortgage period that you mention &#8230; but, yes, if there is a prolonged period of high interest rates that happen to coincide with an equally prolonged period of low stock market returns, the simple example that I have provided may not work out.</p>
<p>No reason to pay down your mortgage for a hugely non-trivial number of people, huh? <img src='http://7million7years.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://7million7years.com/2009/03/07/at-last-a-post-that-agrees-with-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2447</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 01:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://7million7years.com/?p=1711#comment-2447</guid>
		<description>@Adrian -

From what I&#039;ve read, if you hold long enough the market historically will provide you a 9.5% return (not including taxes/expenses/etc).  Regardless of whether the average market return is 9.5% or 11.5%, the length of your holding period determines the swing around the average market return that you can expect to receive.  Thus, Person B, by holding longer, is just increasing their chances of receiving the average market return--increases the reliability of the return.

&quot;On balance, I think that person B is actually holding MORE money for LONGER periods in the stock market …&quot;

Person B is definitely in the market for LONGER period than Persion A...but doesn&#039;t &#039;necessarily&#039; have more money in the market.  If Person B does not receive a higher return from the market than the mortgage interest (5%) over the first 19 years, there is a good chance that Person A will have more money in the market by the time Person B pays off their mortgage (and also at the end of the 44 year period).

In most cases Person B will be better off at the end of the 44 years, but there are a non-trival number of cases where Person A will be better off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Adrian -</p>
<p>From what I&#8217;ve read, if you hold long enough the market historically will provide you a 9.5% return (not including taxes/expenses/etc).  Regardless of whether the average market return is 9.5% or 11.5%, the length of your holding period determines the swing around the average market return that you can expect to receive.  Thus, Person B, by holding longer, is just increasing their chances of receiving the average market return&#8211;increases the reliability of the return.</p>
<p>&#8220;On balance, I think that person B is actually holding MORE money for LONGER periods in the stock market …&#8221;</p>
<p>Person B is definitely in the market for LONGER period than Persion A&#8230;but doesn&#8217;t &#8216;necessarily&#8217; have more money in the market.  If Person B does not receive a higher return from the market than the mortgage interest (5%) over the first 19 years, there is a good chance that Person A will have more money in the market by the time Person B pays off their mortgage (and also at the end of the 44 year period).</p>
<p>In most cases Person B will be better off at the end of the 44 years, but there are a non-trival number of cases where Person A will be better off.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian</title>
		<link>http://7million7years.com/2009/03/07/at-last-a-post-that-agrees-with-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2446</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 00:33:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://7million7years.com/?p=1711#comment-2446</guid>
		<description>@ Jeff - True; but for periods &gt; 30 years we could also presume that returns would tend towards the average (~11.5%, from memory). On balance, I think that person B is actually holding MORE money for LONGER periods in the stock market ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Jeff &#8211; True; but for periods &gt; 30 years we could also presume that returns would tend towards the average (~11.5%, from memory). On balance, I think that person B is actually holding MORE money for LONGER periods in the stock market &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://7million7years.com/2009/03/07/at-last-a-post-that-agrees-with-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2445</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 23:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://7million7years.com/?p=1711#comment-2445</guid>
		<description>Nice post.  I also used a similar comparison when planning my own finances.

One word of caution, however...when analyzing a series of cash flows for a specific evaluation period, such as the monthly investments described in the post, each of those cash flows has a different holding period.  For instance, the first $100 investment made by person B has a holding period of 44 years...but each subsequent investment will be held for less time.  As the holding periods get smaller and smaller, the accuracy of the estimated 8% return lessens.  In other words, the assumption that an index fund will provide an 8% return for monthly investments that will be held for less than 25-30 years is a little more speculative than the post makes it seem.

That being said, it probably does not make a difference in this example because the shortest holding period where person A and person B made different investments is 19 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post.  I also used a similar comparison when planning my own finances.</p>
<p>One word of caution, however&#8230;when analyzing a series of cash flows for a specific evaluation period, such as the monthly investments described in the post, each of those cash flows has a different holding period.  For instance, the first $100 investment made by person B has a holding period of 44 years&#8230;but each subsequent investment will be held for less time.  As the holding periods get smaller and smaller, the accuracy of the estimated 8% return lessens.  In other words, the assumption that an index fund will provide an 8% return for monthly investments that will be held for less than 25-30 years is a little more speculative than the post makes it seem.</p>
<p>That being said, it probably does not make a difference in this example because the shortest holding period where person A and person B made different investments is 19 years.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian</title>
		<link>http://7million7years.com/2009/03/07/at-last-a-post-that-agrees-with-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2444</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 23:14:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@ Pinyo - That&#039;s actually a great question; my reference books are in storage because of our move, but from memory, the AVERAGE return for any 30 year period was ~12% and there were ONLY two 30 year periods as low as 8.5% (and NONE lower, of course) ... one of those commenced the day before the greatest stock market crash in history (i.e. the one that heralded the Great Depression).

So, unless the total basis of macro economics in the US - and globally - has permanently changed ... HELL YES :)

@ Scott - I bet it was the best hour or so that you ever spent with a spreadsheet and/or online calculator!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Pinyo &#8211; That&#8217;s actually a great question; my reference books are in storage because of our move, but from memory, the AVERAGE return for any 30 year period was ~12% and there were ONLY two 30 year periods as low as 8.5% (and NONE lower, of course) &#8230; one of those commenced the day before the greatest stock market crash in history (i.e. the one that heralded the Great Depression).</p>
<p>So, unless the total basis of macro economics in the US &#8211; and globally &#8211; has permanently changed &#8230; HELL YES <img src='http://7million7years.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>@ Scott &#8211; I bet it was the best hour or so that you ever spent with a spreadsheet and/or online calculator!</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://7million7years.com/2009/03/07/at-last-a-post-that-agrees-with-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2443</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 14:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://7million7years.com/?p=1711#comment-2443</guid>
		<description>I did an analysis like this for myself a few years back using some of my own projected numbers, ie;, my then-mortgage on a 300k home and my own personal monthly savings numbers at that time.

The difference between the two scenarios over a 30 yr period where staggering. It was a difference of over 1.5 million dollars added to my portfolio by not paying off my mortgage early.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did an analysis like this for myself a few years back using some of my own projected numbers, ie;, my then-mortgage on a 300k home and my own personal monthly savings numbers at that time.</p>
<p>The difference between the two scenarios over a 30 yr period where staggering. It was a difference of over 1.5 million dollars added to my portfolio by not paying off my mortgage early.</p>
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